馬云對(duì)話美國記者：這番不留情面的大實(shí)話 外媒炸開了鍋

日前，在達(dá)沃斯論壇上，馬云接受CNBC記者安德魯·羅斯·索爾金（Andrew Ross Sorkin）的采訪，展開了一場(chǎng)別開生面的對(duì)談。

馬云接受CNBC記者采訪

提問尖銳，對(duì)答精彩，再次讓我們見識(shí)到馬云的口才與魅力。

但整場(chǎng)對(duì)話里，最觸動(dòng)外媒神經(jīng)的，是開場(chǎng)不久，馬云說，美國不應(yīng)該怪中國人搶走他們的工作，如果要怪，只能怪自己。

為什么呢？他是這樣論述的：

"American international companies made millions and millions of dollars from globalization."

美國跨國企業(yè)在全球化過程中賺得盆滿缽滿。

"IBM, Microsoft, the profit they made was larger than the top four banks in China put together ... But where did the money go?"

IBM、微軟，這些大公司賺的錢比中國四大銀行總利潤都高……但錢都到哪兒去了？

關(guān)鍵還是美國的戰(zhàn)略錯(cuò)誤，導(dǎo)致錢沒花對(duì)地方：

"In the past 30 years, America had 13 wars spending $14.2 trillion. What if they spend part of the money on building infrastructure, helping the white collars and blue collars? No matter how good your strategy is you’re supposed to spend money on your own people."

過去30年，美國在13場(chǎng)戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)中花費(fèi)了14.2萬億美元，如果這些資金有一部分用于投資基建、幫助白領(lǐng)和藍(lán)領(lǐng)呢？無論你們的戰(zhàn)略有多好，你們應(yīng)該為民眾而投資。

"The money goes to Wall Street. Then what happened? Year 2008 wiped out $19.2 trillion in US income … What if the money was spent on the Midwest of the United States?"

還有大量資金流向了華爾街。然后呢？2008年金融危機(jī)發(fā)生了，損失了19.2萬億美元。如果這些錢不是流向華爾街，而是用來開發(fā)中西部呢？

"It’s not that other countries steal American jobs. It is your strategy – that you did not distribute the money in a proper way."

不是其他國家偷走了美國的就業(yè)機(jī)會(huì)，這是你們的戰(zhàn)略問題，你們沒有合理分配資金。

馬云這番不留情面的大實(shí)話讓美國媒體集體炸開了鍋，紛紛援引報(bào)道。

▲CNBC：中國富豪馬云稱美國浪費(fèi)萬億資金在戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)上，而非投資基建

▲《商業(yè)內(nèi)幕》：阿里巴巴創(chuàng)始人馬云殘酷實(shí)在地分析美國過去30年如何走錯(cuò)路

▲美國財(cái)經(jīng)博客網(wǎng)站ZeroHedge：阿里巴巴馬云在達(dá)沃斯投下一劑苦澀而真實(shí)的藥丸：美國在過去30年在戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)中浪費(fèi)了14萬億美元

（注：Redpill指讓人睜眼看清殘酷事實(shí)真相的事物或思維方式）

▲馬云啪啪打臉美國：美國錯(cuò)將資金投入戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)而非國民

這還是開場(chǎng)，就已經(jīng)這么勁爆，全程更是高潮迭起。來看完整視頻！另外，馬云的英語真的越來越6了呢！

流量黨不敢開視頻的，雙語君也給大家提煉了一些亮點(diǎn)，一起來看看。

和特朗普見面是個(gè)好主意

索爾金的采訪從馬云與特朗普的會(huì)面切入，問這次見面到底是誰主動(dòng)找誰的。

馬云如實(shí)回答，是朋友建議的，主意聽起來不錯(cuò)，于是就去了。

One day I got a request from some people: 'Jack do you want to meet the president-elect?' I said, 'Is that true? I'm not ready for that, 'cause I don't know what to talk about.' And then a few days later, I got another request. I got several requests. I thought about it. I think, yes, maybe I should go and have a talk. At least I think President-elect Donald Trump would be happy to hear what I talk about, so I went.

有一天，有人問我你想不想與候任總統(tǒng)見面，我說真的嗎，我還沒準(zhǔn)備好，我不知道要談些什么。過了幾天，又收到了幾次請(qǐng)求。我想了想也許我應(yīng)該去談一談，至少特朗普可能會(huì)對(duì)我說的東西感到高興，所以我就去了。

中國代表東方？美國代表其他人？

在聊到全球化問題時(shí)，索爾金犀利地提出，中國代表東方，那如果說美國要代表所有其他人呢？這種對(duì)立如何解決呢？

馬云的回答技高一籌，他站在世界的高度，將西方化敵為友：

The world needs a new leadership. But the new leadership is about working together. This is what I understand. We do not necessarily need one specific leader to teach us what to do, what not to do.

世界需要新的領(lǐng)袖，但新的領(lǐng)袖意味著攜手共進(jìn)，這是我的理解。新的領(lǐng)袖并不需要是特定的某一個(gè)，來教導(dǎo)大家什么可以做、什么不能做。

馬云另外提到，習(xí)主席提及中國作為世界第二大經(jīng)濟(jì)體應(yīng)該擔(dān)負(fù)起責(zé)任，并表示未來5年中國的進(jìn)口額將達(dá)到8萬億美元。

他激動(dòng)地表示，這番話讓他感到很驕傲：

As a businessperson, I want the world to share the prosperity together, to join the force together. As a Chinese, I'm happy about what he committed. This is the first time I heard a Chinese leader putting a number on the commitment. This makes me excited because China is transforming from exporting to importing. If there's a concrete number, if we could fulfill it, this is going to be a huge change to China and to the world.

作為一個(gè)商人，我希望全世界能夠共同擔(dān)負(fù)起責(zé)任、攜手合作；作為一個(gè)中國人，我也對(duì)他所作出的承諾感到高興，這是我第一次聽到中國領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人作出量化承諾，這讓我興奮，因?yàn)橹袊龔某隹谙蜻M(jìn)口轉(zhuǎn)型，如果能夠達(dá)成一個(gè)具體的數(shù)據(jù)目標(biāo)，這對(duì)中國和世界而言都將是個(gè)巨大的轉(zhuǎn)變。

若只有一種商業(yè)模式，那就太乏味了

索爾金再度拋出難題，讓馬云對(duì)比阿里巴巴與亞馬遜，問到底哪種商業(yè)模式正確。

馬云說，商業(yè)模式?jīng)]有標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，兩種都正確：

I hope both are right. And because the world can never have one mode. If the world has only one correct mode, the world's too boring. We need to have all kinds of modes. And the people who do the mode should believe the mode. And I believe what I do.

我希望兩者都是正確的，因?yàn)槭澜绮恢挥幸环N商業(yè)模式，如果世界只有一種“正確”的商業(yè)模式，這個(gè)世界將非常乏味。我們需要各種各樣的模式，為某種模式而努力的人們必須相信這種模式，我相信我所做的。

馬云也分析了亞馬遜與阿里的不同，道出了阿里的經(jīng)營哲學(xué)——我們更包容，用技術(shù)讓每個(gè)企業(yè)都能成為亞馬遜。亞馬遜一下被比了下去啊。

Amazon is more like an empire. Everything they control themselves, buy and sell. And our philosophy is that we want to be an eco-system. Our philosophy is to empower others to sell, empower others to serve, to make sure the other people are more powerful than us.Our philosophy is that we think using internet technology, we can make every company become Amazon.

亞馬遜更像是一個(gè)帝國，自己控制所有環(huán)節(jié)，從買到賣；我們的哲學(xué)則是希望打造生態(tài)系統(tǒng)，我們的哲學(xué)是賦能其他人，協(xié)助他們?nèi)ヤN售、去服務(wù)，確保他們能夠比我們更有力量。我們相信通過互聯(lián)網(wǎng)技術(shù)，我們能讓每一家企業(yè)都成為亞馬遜。

索爾金又抓住阿里不控制供應(yīng)鏈的弱點(diǎn)，問這樣怎么能保證高效呢？人家亞馬遜可是幾小時(shí)就能送貨到家。

對(duì)此，馬云用具體數(shù)據(jù)進(jìn)行了駁斥：

We made same-day delivery possible in 125 cities last year. Imagine 10 years ago, deliver one thing from Beijing to Hangzhou took about 8 days. Now you can deliver things from Beijing to Inner Mongolia, some cities within 12 hours. It's improving. You can never expect these things to happen within 24 hours. We have patience.

去年我們?cè)谥袊?25個(gè)城市實(shí)現(xiàn)了當(dāng)日達(dá)。10年前從北京到杭州的郵寄就要8天，現(xiàn)在12個(gè)小時(shí)就能從北京送貨到內(nèi)蒙古城市，物流效率提升了。你不可能一天期望達(dá)到這樣的進(jìn)步，我們有足夠的耐心。

這里，馬云還有一句話很動(dòng)人：

This is what we feel proud of. It's not how much money we made, it's not how powerful we are, it's that we can make technology very inclusive. Every small company can use it. This is my dream.

我們所驕傲的，不是我們掙了多少錢，而是我們具有多大的能量。我們可以使科技變得更有包容性，每一個(gè)小企業(yè)都可以使用，這是我的夢(mèng)想。

阿里巴巴盜版和侵權(quán)泛濫怎么辦？

主持人索爾金犀利地拋出阿里巴巴廣受詬病的盜版和侵權(quán)問題，馬云詳細(xì)地談了這個(gè)問題，條理清晰地給出了回答。

As an e-commerce, when you have 10 million small business, and empower them to sell, you cannot check every product like Amazon does. So e-commerce itself may have a lot of flaws.

當(dāng)你作為電商為1000萬小企業(yè)提供銷售平臺(tái)，你無法像亞馬遜那樣買來再賣出，去檢查每件商品的真?zhèn)巍ｋ娚瘫旧砭陀泻芏噼Υ谩?/p>

In the past 17 years, we are the leader in anti-piracy issues. With big progress last year alone, we put 400 people in jail. We deleted 370 million fake products off our site.

但在過去的17年中，我們一直是反盜版的領(lǐng)軍人物。就去年一年，我們把400人送進(jìn)了監(jiān)獄，從網(wǎng)站下架3.7億件假冒商品。

Fighting against fake products is the war against human greediness. It is not easy. You can not finish it, but you have to continue to fight.

反假冒偽劣產(chǎn)品之戰(zhàn)實(shí)則是對(duì)抗人類貪婪本性之戰(zhàn)。并不容易，也不能一下子完成，但是必須持之以恒，戰(zhàn)斗不止。

馬云上面這段回答，條理清晰，有理有據(jù)，舉例子、引數(shù)據(jù)、最后升華感情一樣不少，少年們，注意學(xué)習(xí)啊。

最愛《阿甘正傳》

最后索爾金問阿里巴巴是不是要進(jìn)軍娛樂界，是不是要和好萊塢合作了，馬云的回答更是精彩，幽默又煽情，金句頻出。

Five years ago, we had a big debate about 10 years later, 20 years later, what are the things the Chinese society want? We say "happiness" and "health" - the two "H" strategy.

五年前，我們有過一次大辯論，關(guān)于10年、20年后中國最需要什么。最后決定是happiness和health，雙H戰(zhàn)略。

We believe Hollywood, the movie industry, can bring people happiness. Because today nobody is happy. Rich people are not happy, and poor people are not happy. At least when I watch movie, I feel happy. So I think we should be partner with Hollywood.

我們認(rèn)為好萊塢，或說電影產(chǎn)業(yè)能給人帶來快樂。如今富人也好，窮人也罷，沒人覺得快樂。不過，至少當(dāng)我看電影的時(shí)候，我覺得挺開心。所以，我覺得我們應(yīng)該和好萊塢合作。

My favorite movie is Forrest Gump. When people call me crazy and stupid in the past 17 years, I told myself Forrest Gump said 'Go ahead, never care about other people'.

我最喜歡的電影是《阿甘正傳》。在過去17年中，當(dāng)人們說我瘋說我傻的時(shí)候，我告訴自己阿甘說了“勇往直前，不要管其他人怎么想”。

And Gump also said: 'Nobody makes money by catching whales, people make money by catching shrimps.' So we serve small business.

另外阿甘還說“都去捕鯨賺不到錢，抓小蝦米才賺錢。”所以，我們服務(wù)小企業(yè)、小生意。

覺不覺得這段回答簡(jiǎn)直是托?？谡Z模板，以小見大，曉之以理，動(dòng)之以情。

中美不該打貿(mào)易戰(zhàn)

有觀眾向馬云提問——中美之間會(huì)不會(huì)發(fā)生貿(mào)易戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)，這是很多人關(guān)心的問題，馬云的答案也十分清晰明了。

I think China and the US should never have a trade war and we will never have a trade war. And I think we should give president-elect Trump some time. I believe one thing, when trade stops, the world stops.

我認(rèn)為中美之間不應(yīng)該有貿(mào)易戰(zhàn)，也不會(huì)出現(xiàn)貿(mào)易戰(zhàn)。而且我覺得應(yīng)該給特朗普一些時(shí)間去想明白。我相信，如果貿(mào)易停止了，世界也就停滯了。

最后不忘給大家煲了滿滿一碗雞湯——眼前不光有賺錢，還有詩和遠(yuǎn)方。

The world is so wonderful, why should I always be the CEO of Alibaba? I come to this world not to work, I come to this world to enjoy my life. I don't want to die in my office, I want to die at the beach.

世界如此美妙，我為啥非得一直做阿里巴巴的CEO呢？我來到這世界，不是為了工作，而是為了享受生活啊。我不想死在辦公室，我想死在沙灘上。